Discussion PS

BÃ¼cherwurm Anmeldedatum: 04.10.2004 Beiträge: 9675 Wohnort: bei Mrs. Figg

AT TORn, there is always a discussion about Tolkien's books running, a chapter a week. Kel and I have been talking about discussing the HP books here, though in a different way. What do you think about starting with chatper 1, and when we have commented on everything (including all the plotholes!), we move on to chapter 2? Would anyone be interested in trying that out? Could it work at all?

Yes, we can try.
But I only have the "plattdeutsche" Version, which is better than the original german translation, but still has some mistakes.
I made a lot of notes acc. to Violas "Box"
:-)

BÃ¼cherwurm Anmeldedatum: 04.10.2004 Beiträge: 9675 Wohnort: bei Mrs. Figg

Good :-)
The language of your book shouldn't be that important, I think. There may be some names or the like some of us don't know in the other language, but I am sure we will be able to work out what is meant. The descriptions in the HP lexicon might be handy for that sort of thing, too.

Though we will start only in the new year; before that, Kel is unavailable. Maybe I can drag another friend into that, too ;-)

Say "Friend" and enter!
Everyone is wellcome.
If you get in contact with Kel send her kind greetings from this edge of the world.

BÃ¼cherwurm Anmeldedatum: 04.10.2004 Beiträge: 9675 Wohnort: bei Mrs. Figg

Chapter 1: The Boy Who Lived

Thought I'd just start, as I am reading PS at the moment anyway :-)

Here we get to know some of the main protagonists: The Dursleys, Albus Dumbledore, Minerva McGonagall, Hagrid, and of course, Harry. And we learn how Harry ended up with the Dursleys.

First off, 'Dursleyish' would make a great swear word *eg* That bit is more than enough to dislike them, and I enjoyed Vernon's discomfort. Nasty of me, I know. Dumbledore should have listened to McGonagall.

Dumbledore's description is quite ... err ... colourful, isn't it? And how does he avoid that his beard gets in the way of everything? *eg* Though I liked McGonagall more, I think. She tried to tell him that the Dursleys weren't the right guardians for Harry, and she was absolutely right.

Though the story has barely started, I've already got the first questions. Nothing that would be that obvious at first reading, but knowing all seven books, won't leave me alone. How could Dumbledore know about the attack on Godric's Hollow and send Hagrid to pick up Harry? And in hindsight, knowing about the Fidelius Charm, why was Hagrid able to find the house at all? While I am sure Sirius was included in the Fidelius, I am equally sure Hagrid was not, so he should not have been able to see the house at all. And if Dumbledore had told him, he had not only to be in on the secret, but he had to know that Peter was the Secret-Keeper, not Sirius. And if the Fidelius dissolved during the attack, again: how could Dumbledore have known it?

On a only slightly related topic: Maybe I've been reading too many fanfics, but I am wondering about something: The Potters are an old pureblood family, reasonably wealthy and probably with some tradition and history to their name. Wouldn't you expect James to leave a will? Particularly as his family was hunted by Voldemort? And would you not expect them to take care for the case Harry would end up an orphan? To leave only Sirius as the legal guardian, who was supposed to be the main target for Voldemort appears a bit odd to me. Would the Potters not have named more guardians, just in case? And would they have excluded the Dursleys?

Lastly: What Dumbledore did would have been a crime over here in the Muggle world â€“ to leave the poor baby on a doorstep in the middle of the night was absolutely irresponsible. It was early november, cold and rainy, for heavens sake! How can anyone leave a baby out there for hours, just with a blanket? And what if Harry had woken up? At fifteen months, he'd be old enough to crawl, if not walk, away ...

Kitty hat Folgendes geschrieben:

At fifteen months, he'd be old enough to crawl, if not walk, away ...

Maybe he was tied?
Just for his own savety?
I liked Minerva as a cat - looking at a map. *gg*
Please help me, why Voldemort was hunting the Potters?
Was it "only" because they were not willing to become deatheaters?

BÃ¼cherwurm Anmeldedatum: 04.10.2004 Beiträge: 9675 Wohnort: bei Mrs. Figg

Ah yes, the map-reading cat - that was fun :D

The Potters had already defied LV thrice - as had the Longbottoms. But the main reason was the prophecy Trelawney had made when she had her interview with Dumbledore for the Divination job.

Zitat:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

This could have fit for Neville and Harry, who are born one day apart. Snape overheard the beginning and ran to Voldemort, of course, who, not knowing about "mark him as his equal", chose Harry, did just that and was sent into a bodyless state for his trouble.

Thank you.
That's the point!
The prophecy.
Now I remember. That strange thing stored on the MoM.
No one ever expained how it was keept there.

BÃ¼cherwurm Anmeldedatum: 04.10.2004 Beiträge: 9675 Wohnort: bei Mrs. Figg

Not entirely sure how that works, but I seem to remember that every prophecy that was made is somehow stored in the Department of Mysteries. Maybe some automatic recording, like the birth of magical children.

Would like to hear what more you like from chapter 1. Any more comments or ideas?

Knowing how things went, I wonder if Dumbledore knew how badly Harry would be treated?

Dumbledore knew much more than other - if he knew that point? I don't know.
Strange things in the first chapter?
A lot of them!!!
First I think it is strange that the Dursleys try to pretent that they don't know the Potters, and much more that Lily isn't Petunia's sister.
She hasn' seen her for years.
But the Dursleys know, that the Pottes have a son of their own.
Also the wizards which run around, hugging anyone they see on the road.
Normaly they do everything to pretend that they do not exist, hiding away from all and everything.
And then this kind of behaviour.

More strange things.
Dumbledore is still that wired buddy, he always will be during the books.
He knows about all the sad things that have happened hours!!! ago.
But he's talking about "Brausebonbons" sorry, Kitty may you help me??

Than Hagrid. His behaviour is allright!
But how has he found Godrics Hallow?
How will the muggles find it?
Why took it a whole day to get Harry save to the Dursleys?
All this stuff happend in the night before the book starts.

Who has told about Voldemort's "death"

Why do the wizzards run around as mad the whole day, but at the end of chapter one they meet in secret places to "trinken auf " Harry?
Sorry, I never read the english book.

Does Dumbledore already have an idea about Harry's scar and a possible connection to LV??

Edit: What's this thing about "useful" scars. Dumbledore's scar on onhis left knee is exactly the plan of the London Subway? For what reason this is useful? Does he use the subway? Also this scar never re-appears.

BÃ¼cherwurm Anmeldedatum: 04.10.2004 Beiträge: 9675 Wohnort: bei Mrs. Figg

That was really childish, trying to pretend that they don't know the Potters. But what do you expect? Being able to perform magic is 'unnormal', and that in turn is Un-Dursleyish *eg*
Maybe Lily told her sister that she had a son? I think they still had some contact - I vaguely remember that according to that letter in DH baby Harry broke a vase Petunia had sent.

And of course you're right - the news of Voldemort vanquished made the wizards more than a bit careless.

The Brausebonbon was "sherbet lemon" in the original. (Sherbet is an old word for Brause, according to leo)

That's exactly what I'd like JKR to explain - how could Hagrid find GH? *grumble* I doubt she had really thought the Fidelius through at this point in time.
As for the muggles, I seem to remember that there was a spell on the ruin to keep muggles away?

Why took it so long to get Harry there? Hm ... I think I've been reading too many Dumbledore-bashing stories, as a lot of snarky answers are popping into my head now, like raising monitoring and blood wards, putting monitoring charms on poor Harry, sealing the Potter's will so he can manipulate Harry (what he really did) and the like ...
But to take the question seriously: First idea is that he wanted to bring him there in the night, but as I understand it, it *was* night when Hagrid took Harry, so that makes not much sense. And the distance can't be an issue for wizards who can apparate. Then he could have taken Harry to a checkup to Poppy, but if he did that, why was the Horcrux not discovered?

The question who told about Voldie's death is a very good one; if I interpret the fourth chapter correctly, there wasn't any body (which makes no sense at all - but that's for another chapter). The only surviving witness was Harry, after all ...

Hm ... I think at first it was just exuberance when the news came out. That had probably to die down a bit before they could raise their glasses in honour of the Boy-Who-Lived and in memory of Lily and James Potter.

I believe AD was only after the CoS on the Horcrux track, but I am not sure. Again - why was the Horcrux not found after that fateful Halloween? They should have noticed the dark magic radiating off the scar.

And I think that scar of Dumbledore's was only one of these ideas that were mentioned and then straight forgotten. That guy doesn't use the tube, he's much too flashy for that.

Did I forget anything?

ausgejault Anmeldedatum: 24.10.2004 Beiträge: 1681

Hi! I think this is a fabulous idea - I'm in!
How's Kel? Is she joining this discussion too? Helloooooo Kel, where are you? :o)

Ok then... your points, Kitty...
- I think that no one apart from Wormtail was a Secret Keeper, and I think the Fidelius Charm breaks as soon as the person to be protected dies. Even though... as Harry was still alive at the house, the Charm should have kept working, unless it was only attached to Lily and James... hmmm... Ok, as soon as the Charm breaks, you can find the house again, and as they hadn't moved, obviously Dumbledore and Sirius knew where to find it.
- Yeah, they left Harry on the step, nasty behaviour! ;o) But maybe they'd been observing the Dursley's habits and knew exactly when uncle Vernon would step out to get the morning paper or something. And it would have been quite late in the night / early morning by the time they left him there, wouldn't it? I'm more surprised that the milk man didn't pick him up! *g*
- The will - I think they didn't make Sirius secret keeper so he would be around to look after Harry in case something happened. They didn't expect him to be err... indisposed for 12 years I guess. And after all - they were young and reckless, weren't they - and probably believed in happy ends...
- where do you think Dumbledore should have placed Harry to be brought up? And how would that have changed the course of events?
- Not sure how Sirius got there so quickly, he was the first on the scene, right? Maybe the 4 friends had some of their very own communication magic beyond a map of Hogwarts... Maybe they could "feel" it when the Fidelius broke? Something one should have asked Lupin... Where was he that night?

What I want to know is - where did Sirius get that motorbike from? Did he get it to piss his parents off? Nice charm work - and a funny paralelle to Arthur Weasley...

I am liking this discussion. :o)

BÃ¼cherwurm Anmeldedatum: 04.10.2004 Beiträge: 9675 Wohnort: bei Mrs. Figg

Good - the more, the better :-)

Kel's been ill a lot over the last months - lingering effects from an infection and stress, but it seems she's back on the way to recovery now. Already reminded her of this thread, so let's hope I can drag her over.

- Hm - I was under the impression that the Fidelius is cast on an object, not on a person. It's probably too complex for a moving object. Later, it was cast on 12, GP, not on the order members. Otherwise it would be much easier to hide when you could put yourself under Fidelius (and how on earth is then anyone able to find someone when that someone is walking around under Fidelius?) So I guess the charm stays active even after the persons die.
But that still leaves the question how Dumbledore has *known* that the Fidelius has been broken?? Did he put monitoring charms on the house? But how could he when he was not in on the secret?

- The only one who observed the Dursleys was Minerva, for one day, and she objected to Harry being left there. And Dumbledore turned up around midnight, so little Harry was there for some hours. *grumbles something about child neglect*

- No, no, Sirius explained it in PoA, ch. 'The Servant of Lord Voldemort': "Lily and James only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested it", Black hissed, so venomously that Pettigrew took a step backwards. "I thought it was the perfect plan ... a bluff ... Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you .. it must have been the finest moment in your miserable life, telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters." In other words, Sirius was set up as the target for Voldemort to distract from the true Secret-Keeper.

- There would have been many wizard families on the light side who could have taken in Harry. The Longbottoms, for instance, being under the same threat and understanding the problem and with a son of the same age as Harry. While I understand Dumbledore's babbling about Harry growing up somewhere where he's not famous to a certain extent - that's no excuse to put him with people who hate magic and punish him for accidental magic and more. And what would have changed? Harry would have known more about the wizarding world and been a bit more self-assured, maybe have learned more from a *proper* guardian and been able to finish Voldemort earlier ...
And while I'm on the soapbox anyway: The more of the Dumbledore-bashing fics I'm reading, the more I have to agree - one can't help but wonder if it was deliberate to keep Harry from learning too much; as a mediocre wizard he could be better sacrificed to LV in the end than one that has learned to fight back ... *grumble*
- Sirius went to Godric's Hollow after he had checked on Peter and didn't find him where he was supposed to be, so Sirius grew suspicious.

*grin* A certain Snuffles once explained to me he got the bike from his granny ;-) Well, on a more serious note, I can see Sirius being interested in Muggles, he didn't share his family's pureblood supremacist bigotry, after all. And Lily was a Muggleborn. Considering the posters in his room, I guess it was both - interest in the bike and pissing off his parents big time *eg*

This Fidelius is strange!
Hasn't it been possible, to make Lily the secret keeper for her own home.
If it is related to a single person, James could have been Lily's and Lily James' secret keeper.

And when does the charm break?
If the secret keeper dies, will the charm be enduring in eternity?
On the other hand it is dangerous, if it breakes with the death.
Only imagine, Wormtail has had an accident and died in South-East-Africa. Nobody would have kown and the Potters would have been without protection.